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Post by Ron on Aug 11, 2021 15:19:08 GMT -5
Eliyahu: Imahebrew is teaching that we must go through the law to receive God's free gifts through faith, and such a thing is no where taught in the New Testament scriptures. I thought that you would have known that.
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 11, 2021 15:24:31 GMT -5
Eliyahu: Imahebrew is teaching that we must go through the law to receive God's free gifts through faith, and such a thing is no where taught in the New Testament scriptures. I thought that you would have known that. Ron, Yea I guess that I should have realized that, but I will have to go to 'members' setting to keep the snakes out tonight. |
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 12, 2021 5:26:37 GMT -5
Ken, Really? Maybe because your pet idea has your blinders on, I've been looking through all of the verses that use the Greek word number G1537 to find where the English word "ex" that Ron proved could have been used and there are numerous places, and here below is another one. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of/G1537 the heat, and fastened on his hand. Acts 28:3. www.blbclassic.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=out+of&page=26&t=KJVThis verse could be translated as below. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper that Exited/G1537 the heat, and fastened on his hand. |
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Post by Ron on Aug 12, 2021 6:17:52 GMT -5
Eliyahu: Turn about is fair play because your words from the Strong BLB 'out of, from, by, away from' can also be used in this text. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked 'out of away from/G1534' among the just, Matt.13:49.
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Post by Ron on Aug 12, 2021 6:30:56 GMT -5
What Imahebrew should be asking himself is this regarding both the first Adam and the second Adam Christ; was the second Adam Christ flesh created in sin before the Cross?
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Post by Ron on Aug 12, 2021 7:15:28 GMT -5
We know from Gen. 1:27, 31 that when Adam and Eve were created that God said 'behold it is very good' and we also know from Gen.2:9 that 'the tree of life' was also in the garden of Eden which they could have chosen to partake of it too, but then the serpent or the devil shows up and deceives Eve and Adam and Eve CHOSE to sin and follow the devil, and it was not until after this that the earth was cursed Gen.3:1 in vanity because of sin.
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 12, 2021 7:31:45 GMT -5
We know from Gen. 1:27, 31 that when Adam and Eve were created that God said 'behold it is very good' and we also know from Gen.2:9 that 'the tree of life' was also in the garden of Eden which they could have chosen to partake of it too, but then the serpent or the devil shows up and deceives Eve and Adam and Eve CHOSE to sin and follow the devil, and it was not until after this that the earth was cursed Gen.3:1 in vanity because of sin. Ron, Yesser indeed, and your question here is a good one.And of course the scriptural answer to this question is NO, because Messiah never committed any sin of His own, and as John wrote that in Him was and is no sin. |
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Post by Ron on Aug 12, 2021 8:01:17 GMT -5
Eliyahu: Yes Christ was tempted in all points as we are and yet without sin of His own Heb.4:15; and man and women have to learn what sin really is 1Jn.3:4, and choose NOT to sin as Christ did.
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 5:30:10 GMT -5
Ken, Here is the New Living Translation of Romans 5:15-17, and let's see if ye will accept it? But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=5&v=16&t=NLT#16So tell us Ken, WHICH ONE do we receive the free gift of righteousness, Elohim, or our sin? |
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Post by Ron on Aug 14, 2021 7:02:25 GMT -5
Eliyahu: why would you even ask him such a question?
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 7:09:47 GMT -5
Eliyahu: why would you even ask him such a question? Ron, Because Ken thinks that sin is the origin righteousness, and Spying his brother thinks that sin is the origin of grace. |
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 9:07:10 GMT -5
To those who are dull of hearing. The Apostle Paul claimed that Adam was a TYPE or FIGURE of the Coming One in Rom 5:14, at the end of the verse. In his NEXT statement he REVEALS HOW Adam was a TYPE or FIGURE of the Coming One, at the very beginning of verse 15. "But not with respect to the OFFENSE, rather, the FREE GIFT." The comparison (type/figure) is NOT with the OFFENSE, instead or rather, the comparison is made ONLY by looking at the GIFT that they BOTH gave to mankind. Adam's gift was death and condemnation through just one offense, Yeshua's gift was righteousness and life through many offenses. This is EXACTLY how the Apostle Paul was thinking and teaching, and NON of the commentators/translators understood him because they have NO understanding of Elohim's Grace. All of the commentators think that after Paul said Adam was a TYPE of FIGURE of the Coming One, they then THINK Paul was trying to teach how they were both different. Baloney!
With respect to G1537, The Apostle Paul would not have used G1537 twice in Rom 15:16 with it having TWO different meanings, PERIOD. Those that teach that G1537 did have TWO different meanings in this verse are deceived, and they themselves are trying to deceive, PERIOD.
With respect to not finding in the New Testament were righteousness/justification is through fulfilling the Law by faith. It is very obvious those who teach this do not follow what Paul says very closely. The Apostle Paul states it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous, rather it is the DOERS of the Law who will be declared righteous. Paul also states that Yeshua came as a sin offering so that those who walk after the Spiritual Fulfillment of the Law, fulfill the righteousness of the Law. The righteousness of the Law REQUIRES any sinner who has disobeyed any of the commandments, that they are to KILL their sin offering, and when they do so, it is righteousness for them. Those who cannot see this are in darkness. Ken
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 9:14:04 GMT -5
Rom 5:16 instead of 15:16
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 9:36:00 GMT -5
One more thing. Our unrighteousness establishes the free gift of righteousness from Elohim. Paul states this very clearly here:
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of Elohim, what shall we say? [Is] Elohim unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
The word used for "commend" is G4921, and this is what Thayer says: συνίστημι (sunistēmi) 1.) to place together, to set in the same place, to bring or band together 1.a.) to stand with (or near) 2.) to set one with another 2.a.) by way of presenting or introducing him 2.b.) to comprehend 3.) to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing 3.a.) to show, prove, establish, exhibit 4.) to put together, unite parts into one whole 4.a.) to be composed of, consist
Paul is saying very clearly that OUR unrighteousness establishes the righteousness of Elohim, so one could ask, "Is Elohim unrighteous who taketh vengeance?" More or less, IF our unrighteousness commends or establishes the righteousness of Elohim, then would not He be unrighteous to take vengeance for our unrighteousness? Paul says "Elohim forbid; for then how shall Elohim judge the world?"
It is hear that Paul states he is being slandered about this teaching of OUR unrighteousness establishing the righteousness of Elohim where he states: "And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."
Paul is very clearly stating that our sin establishes the free gift of righteousness, and those who heard him teach this would turn around and say that Paul was teaching that we should "do evil" so the "good may come." Sort of how I have been maligned. Ken
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 9:38:42 GMT -5
Rom 5:16 instead of 15:16 Ken, Who wrote and said "Romans 15:16"? |
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 9:46:50 GMT -5
And Ken, ye better remember that ye can't lock up threads here as ye did on LO-AMMI and try to force me to admit to a falsehood of having "dementia" as ye tried to do.
I can't help but smile.
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 9:51:14 GMT -5
Yea, Ken says, I don't have to answer Ron's questions, because I'm going to live by my own ideas ABOUT Paul's words even if it kills me..
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:05:39 GMT -5
Rom 5:16 instead of 15:16 Ken, Who wrote and said "Romans 15:16"? I did in my first post today, and I was just correcting it. |
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 10:09:01 GMT -5
And Ken how do we understand this verse below by John that uses G1537 4 times in the same verse. They went out G1831 from G1537 us, G2257 but G235 they were G2258 not G3756 of G1537 us; G2257 for G1063 if G1487 they had been G2258 of G1537 us, G2257 they would G302 no doubt have continued G3306 with G3326 us: G2257 but G235 they went out, that G2443 they might be made manifest G5319 that G3754 they were G1526 not G3756 all G3956 of G1537 us. G2257 They went out from/G1537 us, but they were not of/G1537 us; for if they had been of/G1537 us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of/G1537 us. 1 John 2:19www.blbclassic.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=They+went+out+from+us&t=KJVShould it be translated like this. "They went out FROM us, but they were not FROM us"? Is John contradicting himself in the same sentence? |
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:09:34 GMT -5
What Imahebrew should be asking himself is this regarding both the first Adam and the second Adam Christ; was the second Adam Christ flesh created in sin before the Cross? Ron, the second Adam did not sin BECAUSE He was given the Spirit with limit. It is ONLY by the Spirit that one can overcome the desires of the flesh. Adam did not have the Spirt of Elohim they way Yeshua had it and that is WHY Adam was predisposed to commit sin. Are there any other questions I have not addressed?Ken |
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 10:10:56 GMT -5
Ken, Who wrote and said "Romans 15:16"? I did in my first post today, and I was just correcting it. Yes that's true. |
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:14:09 GMT -5
It should have been "without limit." Jn 3:34 For he whom Elohim hath sent speaketh the words of Elohim: for Elohim giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
The Spirit was not measured out to Yeshua, He was given a full measure of the Spirit "without limit."
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Post by Eliyahu C. on Aug 14, 2021 10:15:27 GMT -5
What Imahebrew should be asking himself is this regarding both the first Adam and the second Adam Christ; was the second Adam Christ flesh created in sin before the Cross? Ron, the second Adam did not sin BECAUSE He was given the Spirit with limit. It is ONLY by the Spirit that one can overcome the desires of the flesh. Adam did not have the Spirt of Elohim they way Yeshua had it and that is WHY Adam was predisposed to commit sin. Are there any other questions I have not addressed?Ken Ken, I think that Ron may have been asking about Messiah flesh, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Post by Ron on Aug 14, 2021 10:25:41 GMT -5
Imahebrew changes my question and then answers his own changed question. The question was regarding the first Adam if he was created in sin or not, I say no, and this is the question.
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:29:33 GMT -5
Ron, the second Adam did not sin BECAUSE He was given the Spirit with limit. It is ONLY by the Spirit that one can overcome the desires of the flesh. Adam did not have the Spirt of Elohim they way Yeshua had it and that is WHY Adam was predisposed to commit sin. Are there any other questions I have not addressed?Ken Ken, I think that Ron may have been asking about Messiah flesh, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. Eliyahu, Messiah had the same desires and pulls of the flesh as did Adam, the only difference is that Messiah was given the Spirit without limit/measure. Adam did not have the Power of the Spirit to overcome his corrupt, dishonoured, and weak flesh as Yeshua did. Yeshua was tempted just like Adam, and the flesh is weak, but if you have the Spirit without limit, that overcomes the flesh and the lusts of this world, therefore, He was without sin. Ken |
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Post by Ron on Aug 14, 2021 10:34:37 GMT -5
The most important verse is 1 Cor 15:46 1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is Spiritual, but that which is natural (G5591); and afterward that which is Spiritual.
Paul describes how the FIRST Adam was sown in a corrupted, dishonoured, and weak existence... in a NATURAL body, and points out specifically that this NATURAL man was FIRST, and not the Spiritual Man. Elsewhere Paul speaks about this NATURAL man: 1Cor 2:14 But a natural (G5591) man does not accept the things of the Spirit of Elohim, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
James also speaks of this NATURAL man: Jas 3:15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural (G5591), demonic.
Jude also has something to say of this G5591, and it being DEVOID of the Spirit: Jude 1:19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded (G5591), devoid of the Spirit.
So, Paul clearly and correctly teaches that the FIRST Adam was sown as a NATURAL (G5591) man...corrupted, dishonoured, and weak. And Ron, you are correct in that at the time of Adam and Eve's sinning, they were completely in the dark about good and evil...no knowledge whatsoever. It took them sinning BEFORE they could acquire the knowledge of what good and evil was. And they found out, obedience is good, and disobedience is evil, BUT they HAD to FIRST sin before they could acquire this knowledge. And it was all according to Elohim's PLAN. Then Ron you ask this: With the quote of Thayer: Ron, how do you know WHEN to use the "exit" meaning? Paul uses this same word in Rom 5:1 speaking of being justified BY (G1537) faith. Do you think that Paul meant that being justified, we are to EXIT out of our faith, or be separated from our faith? Does not Paul mean that our justification comes from or is by faith (faith is the origin of our justification, just like many offences is the origin of the free gift)? And then at the beginning of verse 16 Paul uses the same word again stating, "for the judgment was BY (G1537) one to condemnation." Here in the exact same verse, do we use the "exit/separation" definition for both instances of (G1537)? You want the free gift to exit or separate you from your many offences, so should not the judgment exit or separate you from the one? I think that when Thayer gave an "also" meaning for G1537, he KNEW that the vast majority of instances would be that this Greek word indicates or denotes "origin," where something comes FROM...the judgment came from the one, and the free gift comes from the many offences. I'll try to finish up later. Ken Imahebrew: Where does Paul write in these texts above 'that Adam was created in sin'? |
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:35:36 GMT -5
Imahebrew changes my question and then answers his own changed question. The question was regarding the first Adam if he was created in sin or not, I say no, and this is the question.See, my post to Eliyahu above. In the mean time, address this: I very clearly and concisely showed where Paul taught that Adam was sown in corruption, dishonour, and weakness. What does the word “sown” mean to you? What you do not see is that Paul was speaking like a farmer to the Corinthians. You sow something FIRST that doesn’t even come close to resembling the “resurrected” Body. That is what Elohim has done with mankind. He sowed mankind as FLESH, and the FLESH is corrupt, dishonourable, and weak. Adam was FLESH…a NATURAL man, and the NATURAL man was sown FIRST, not the Spiritual Man. It was Elohim’s PLAN for mankind to experience moral depravity, and THAT is what Paul taught: Rom 8:20 For the creation was made subject to vanity (G3153-moral depravity), not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,Elohim’s PLAN is for HOPE. The HOPE that the whole Creation will join in with the Children of Elohim (The Firstfruits) to overcome the bondage to corruption (that Adam and ALL of NATURAL/Carnal mankind was placed under), into the glorious LIBERTY of those who KNOW about the PLAN and the Truth. Now, if I am wrong, please explain what Paul was speaking about in Rom 8:20 and 1 Cor 15:35-49. Why wasn't the Spiritual Man FIRST? Why was SINFUL Adam FIRST in Elohim's PLAN? Ken |
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Post by Ron on Aug 14, 2021 10:43:10 GMT -5
Imahebrew: The creation was not cursed until after Adam and Eve sinned, and yes the first Adam died and was sown, but these texts do not tell us 'that Adam was created in sin, and you won't be honest either.
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:45:42 GMT -5
Imahebrew: Where does Paul write in these texts above 'that Adam was created in sin'? Ron, read my latest post, and re-read 1 Cor 15:35-49. Are you not consigned or bound under sin? Does not Paul state that just as Adam was, so are those like him? The first Adam sinned, and Yeshua states that he who sins is a SLAVE to sin. Yeshua came to bring us out from under that slavery...to give us freedom from being sinners, and Adam being a sinner was according to the PLAN of Elohim, so that He could ultimately TEACH us how to overcome sin and be FREE to chose the good and reject the evil. Adam wasn't given that choice as he did not know good or evil UNTIL he sinned. Ken |
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Post by ImAHebrew on Aug 14, 2021 10:47:44 GMT -5
Got to go.
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